"Thinkin' It Over"

An Interview with Fontaine Brown

Michigan Senator Bob Griffin (at the mic) announces Doug Brown and the Omens
at the Hideout in Southfield, Michigan 1964 (Doug Brown guitar, Al Collini organ)

by Brian Young, Howard DeWitt, and Dennis DeWitt

The Scene: Coco's Restaurant, Laguna Niguel, California Date: March 26, 1997 Time: 7:00 AM Agenda: To meet "Dugg" Fontaine Brown and to discuss "The Further Adventures of Charles Westover" DSAS: Our first question will have to be: What is your real name? Because you're known as Doug Brown, Dugg Brown, Fontaine Brown, Fast Fontaine, Beau James, etcetera. FONTAINE: It's Douglas Fontaine Brown. I grew up as Doug Brown and that was the name I used in the early years with my band, The Omens. "Dugg" is another long story. DSAS: Did a label "give" you that name? FONTAINE: Uh, something like that, yeah. Fontaine Brown is the name I go by today. I don't go by "Doug" or "Dugg" anymore, although my mother still calls me by that name. DSAS: That clears that up. We'll address you as Fontaine. Tell us about your early years. What high school did you graduate from? FONTAINE: Ann Arbor High, Class of '59. DSAS: And what schools did you attend? FONTAINE: Kalamazoo College and the University of Michigan. DSAS: What was the first record that you recorded and released? FONTAINE: "Blue Night" backed with "Swingin' Sue". It was sort of Blues-Rockabilly with strings. It was released on Checker Records under the name Doug Brown. DSAS: Checker Records. You must have recorded it in Chicago then? FONTAINE: That's right. I cut it with Ollie McLaughlin and Leonard Chess at Chess Records' studio. I think it was in 1961. DSAS: With Ollie McLaughlin? No kidding! So, from what we gather, Ollie must have been a real "mover and a shaker" in Ann Arbor (Michigan). He brought Del Shannon to the attention of Harry Balk and Irving Micahnik. FONTAINE: Yeah. Growing up in Ann Arbor, Ollie was "thee man" in town. He had the connections. He had Del Shannon who, at that time, was really our only legendary Michigan rocker. DSAS: Where did you first meet Del Shannon? FONTAINE: At Ollie McLaughlin's. I think it was in mid-1961. DSAS: That early did you? FONTAINE: I believe so. Del was there with Shirley, and he was dressed in a tuxedo and quickly vanished. I had only met him there briefly in passing. I had met him a few more times since then, but it wasn't until 1964, when I worked a regular gig at Norwest Lanes in Southfield, Michigan that things began to happen. Norwest was a bowling alley (corner of Northwestern and 14 Mile) and club. Shirley Westover bowled in a league there. Del came into the bowling alley one night, I guess just to watch his wife bowl. I was playing that night with my band, and Del came over to watch us play. And this is about the time that Dan Bourgoise came into the picture. Dan was 20 years old, but he had a fake I.D. to get him into the lounge so he could hear the music. Dan was already into the music business at this point with his friend, Stephen Monahan. He had got Steve a contract and record out through VeeJay Records. And so, we hit it off, because at that time it was rare to know anyone who "did" anything or "knew" anyone. I guess that's why everyone was signing to horrible contracts. "Publishing? Producing? What's that? Do you get paid for that?" Dan became a regular at Norwest. And when Del wasn't touring, he'd drop in. That led to coming over to his house one day and practicing playing in his basement. The only problem that I had at the time, was that Del was really into country music, and he was hooking Dan onto it. Del would always rave about Buck Owens. "Oh Buck! Ain't he somethin'?! Oh man, you gotta hear Buck!" And I couldn't stand it! Eventually though, I came around, and got into the country stuff too. DSAS: Were you there for the Hank Williams sessions? FONTAINE: Yeah, I was there for that. I didn't play on any of it, but I attended the session. DSAS: Tell us about it. FONTAINE: Well, it was fast. I was there only one day. I think they cut the entire album in one day. Maybe two. But it was done very quickly. They knocked the songs out. Bam! One right after another. DSAS: Do you remember any originals that Del might have done at that session? FONTAINE: No. I don't recall him doing any originals that day. I think it was just the "Hank" stuff for the album. If he did any original country stuff, it must have been at another session. DSAS: How about those handful of demos that you recorded at United Sound in Detroit? In 1964? FONTAINE: Oh yes. What happened is that Del was going to do a bus tour with other artists like Bobby Vee, and a lot of them (on tour) were girl groups. This was for the "Dick Clark Caravan of Stars" road tour. So we wrote all of these songs for Del to pitch to the girl groups while riding on the bus from gig to gig. DSAS: Sorry, who's "we"? FONTAINE: Stephen Monahan, Bob Seger, and myself. We wrote songs like "Tell Bobby Not To Cry," "Alone In The Crowd," I Don't Mind," "Too Good To Be True." They were cut onto acetates and we had Del shop them around for us. These were all put under Del's new publishing arm, "ShiDel Music" and our "Two Souls Music." DSAS: What about the radio promo spot? "Norwest Has Got The Best"? Same session? FONTAINE: Yup. United Sound. And there were one or two more "teenage death" numbers as I recall. DSAS: Can you tell us a little about your connection to Bob Seger? FONTAINE: Sure. Growing up, he was a neighbor of mine. He lived just a few doors down. I was a couple of years older than he was, and already getting into the music scene. He later joined my band, "Doug Brown and the Omens." He played bass. Seger later took over as front man of the band when I left for "bigger and better things" as the saying goes. I was doing some work at the Hideout label, and I was asked if I knew anyone else talented. I brought in Bob Seger, and that's when I produced him on "Eastside Story." They weren't really interested in his voice, Bob being a white sort of soul singer, but if I agreed to produce it, they would sign him. And now, Bob's a nightmare! DSAS: And he must be living well off those Chevy "Like A Rock" commercials alone! FONTAINE: I guess so. And I really think that Bob is more talented than he realizes. I always thought that if he would really cut loose...watch out!!! DSAS: Yeah. Let's jump ahead now to "The Further Adventures of Charles Westover." You produced that album with Dan Bourgoise. FONTAINE: That's correct. I love that album. I love Del's singing. There's a lot on that album that unfortunately "dates" it, but I really love it. It was the time of Sgt. Pepper, and Del had just returned from England with all of these new songs that he had written. So we started brainstorming some wild ideas. "Wouldn't it be great if we put some violins on this?" Or "Throw on some harpsichords!" And "Let's play backwards on this track!" It was a wild and fun time! We threw every idea we had into the pot. DSAS: Well, it certainly has held up very well. It seems to remain a favorite amongst the fans. FONTAINE: I used to have the tapes to the album before we "sweetened" it. We cut the basic tracks with the Watts' 110th Street Rhythm Band. Bob Evans was on drums. DSAS: Bob Evans from (the group) "Smith"? FONTAINE: Yeah, but this was before "Smith" - He was in my band at the time. DSAS: What did you think of Gayle McCormick (from "Smith")? FONTAINE: Oh! What a voice! What a voice she had. It's unfortunate that she disappeared the way she did. She was very talented. L to R: Del Shannon, Dan Bourgoise, and Dugg Brown during a 1967 photo shoot to promote "The Further Adventures of Charles Westover" DSAS: How did you relocate to California, from Michigan? FONTAINE: Del and Dan moved to California. Stephen Monahan sooned followed. Dan kept calling me and telling me how great it was in California. So I came down to California on vacation, and Del and Dan showed me a good time. It was at that time that I met Bernard Yeszin. At that time, Bernie was the only official "Monkees" photographer. You could only get photos of "The Monkees" from him. And of course Dan, being the clever entrepreneur that he is, had some little side deal going with him. Dan was representing him or hustling pictures for him or something. Anyhow, I met Bernie through Dan, and Bernie's last job was drawing up album covers at Motown. They didn't want to put artists pictures on the covers, so they had Yeszin cartooning these album covers like "Please Mr. Postman" with those little stick figures. So, Bernie told me that he was coming back up to Detroit on his vacation, and would introduce me to some people at Motown. By then, I had already had a few hits with Bob Seger as a producer, like "Eastside Story." But I also had "In The Midnight Hour" by The Wanted. Everybody wanted to get their foot in the door at Motown, and a few weeks later, Bernie came up and introduced me to Mickey Stevenson, head of A & R. He did "Dancin' In The Streets" and "What Becomes of the Broken Hearted." To make a long story short, I hit it off with Mickey. Mickey said he was leaving Motown to move to California. He said that MGM was going to front him $1 Million Dollars to start up a record company, and he wanted to know if I wanted to move to California with him. I said "sure" because I was just out there, I loved California, and my friends were already out there. So that's how the Watts 110th Street Rhythm Band got onto "The Further Adventures of Charles Westover". But the label, Venture Records, didn't work out for Stevenson. He just didn't get the hits. And MGM, shoot, they didn't know hoe to promote a record. It was the "movie mentality," and it just didn't work out. But they had some great stuff. So I worked there for a year or a year and a half. The first thing I did when I left there was the "Magic Penny Productions" stuff with Dan, Del, and Brian Hyland. And how that worked was the fact that I had all of the studio and musician connections, and Dan had Del's total confidence. They became real tight. And Del knew Brian Hyland and was already beginning to write songs with Brian. Dan and I co-produced some things together for Brian while he was still on Dot Records. This was before Del started producing him. DSAS: So how did it come around that Dan and yourself would produce "The Further Adventures"? FONTAINE: Well, Del still knew me as sort of a "junior" guy who hung around Ollie McLaughlin's house. Dan talked him into it. He said, "Del, this WILL work," and Del put his total trust in Dan. DSAS: You mentioned that you had a lot of musician connections. Who else did you bring in to cut "The Further Adventures"? FONTAINE: Dr. John. He played organ on "River Cool." DSAS: Really? FONTAINE: Yes, and this was before his hoodoo voodoo man days. At this time, he was still clean cut, thin, and in a suit. He looked like a businessman. DSAS: And you brought in the group "Southwind." FONTAINE: "Southwind" was one of the groups I brought to Venture Records. When I left Venture, I joined the band and we went to Blue Thumb Records, who were just great. We got two albums out as "Southwind." DSAS: You used that band for which songs off the album? FONTAINE: Well, we used "Southwind" on two tracks, "The Letter" and "Thinkin' It Over." "The Letter" didn't appear on the album, of course, being a (Box Tops) cover. That was used as a single for the Philippines. It was a quick cover that we threw out there. And unfortunately, that's the kind of mentality that Liberty had for Del. Just use him for overseas cover-jobs. DSAS: Yeah. "This Is My Bag" and "Total Commitment" were horrible albums in the sense that we know Del could have done more. Del's originals on the albums were good, the production and mixes were good, but for some reason the covers are just pitiful. They sound quick, the mixes are bad. They sound manufactured off an assembly line or something, like it was the first take. "Take 1, ok good, let's move to the next one." Tell us about the writing of "Thinkin' It Over." FONTAINE: Del and I wrote that at his house in Northridge, California. Del and I sat down at his piano, and Del came up with the melody at the drop of a hat. So I was playing the chords and feeding him lines for maybe an hour. And Dan and Shirley were in the room. They witnessed the song take shape. DSAS: Did you ever meet Jonathan M. Perkins? FONTAINE: You know, I never did. I never did. He was a British buy that Del met on tour in England. Del came back with those three songs ("River Cool", "Silver Birch", and "Magical Musical Box"). DSAS: Fontaine, you also wrote "Be My Friend" for the album. FONTAINE: Yeah. Del took mercy on me and recorded it. (Laughs) It wasn't that good of a song. DSAS: What?! We think it came out pretty good! It still holds up today. FONTAINE: Well, if you guys say so. Who am I to argue? DSAS: Working with Del in the studio. How was it? FONTAINE: It was so easy. Del could just sing them one after another. And Del was fun to work with. He had a great sense of humor. Del was a fun guy. He would do some weird things. DSAS: Give us an example. FONTAINE: He'd call you up on the phone and say, "Okay Dugg, big things happenin' tonight. We're going to the Ghost Road. Big deal guy, it's gonna be really great!" What he did was go out into the desert and scout out these weird places. The "Ghost Road" turned out to be a dirt road that led to a gravel pit. Del would take a couple carloads of friends, and his kids, and we would all be driving around in the dark in this gravel pit and dirt roads with the headlights off and the music blaring. But Del made it into something fun. He had a way of framing it into a "big deal." We'd all go out and really laugh it up. Doin' nothing! And he always had some new place that he had scouted out. "Dugg, I saw this haunted house! Big doin's tonight! We're going up to the haunted house. It's gonna be great!" And it turned out to be some old prospector's shack or something, but Del had reeled us in. "We're going to the haunted house!" Another thing that I noticed about Del, was that he fit the profile of what a really good businessman was. He would give you total confidence. If you were doing a deal with him, he would treat you as if you were the expert. He'd bring out the best in you. Del gave me a couple of great Christmas presents. One was one of the first personal tape recorders out on the market, which was a terrific Christmas present for someone like me. It enabled me to drive around in the car with a tape recorder. It may be hard for you to understand, but I got such a charge out of being able to play tapes and record while in the car. There were no tape decks in cars at that time, so you couldn't ride around listening to the music you liked. And he gave me an electric guitar one year. DSAS: In the music business, how did you survive? FONTAINE: Well, I produced a record for Venture Records, and I did "The Further Adventures of Charles Westover." We had the two Southwind albums out on Blue Thumb. I had the Seger things. I went back to the midwest and toured. I played Michigan and Canada a lot with Southwind, but by then it was the new Southwind. New guys joined the band. We toured Oklahoma, Texas, and Florida. I came back to California in the late 70's, changed the group over to "Fast Fontaine." Got a deal with EMI Records, and that bombed. DSAS: Your organist was Gary Johnson? FONTAINE: Yeah, that's right! You know Gary? DSAS: No no. We just knew that Gary became the organist in Del's touring band to promote "Drop Down and Get Me," and that he was originally with you. FONTAINE: Yeah. "Fast Fontaine" broke up, and Del came over to out some of my players. He had his eye on Johnson, and took Gary with him for "Drop Down." DSAS: So what did you do in the 1980's? FONTAINE: I focused my energy on songwriting. Bourgoise being a publisher and my best friend, that helped out a lot. Dan introduced me to a lot of people to co-write with. When you get to a certain age in the music business, you have to re-think your priorities. DSAS: When was the last time you saw Del? FONTAINE: The end of '89. We were over at Dan's house. Del was playing us a demo of a new song that he had written to be the theme song for a new Lee Majors television series. DSAS: Oh yeah. Lee Majors was still a hot item then with the television series, "The Fall Guy," and reruns still airing of "The Six Million Dollar Man." FONTAINE: Right. I can't recall off hand what the song was called, but it was excellent. Something about "getting off the bus" or something. But Del's voice never sounded better. Have you heard his daughter sing? DSAS: Oh yes. She's good. FONTAINE: She's got the voice. She definitely inherited the voice. DSAS: Where were you the night that Del died? FONTAINE: I went to a dinner party with Dan. We went to Dave Edmunds' record release party that night. I had written the title track on his album, "Closer To The Flame," and another track, "Sincerely." So we went to see Dave. Early the next morning, Dan called me and told me the news. I still can't believe it. Fontaine Brown recording "Closer To The Flame" in March 2007 DSAS: Is there anything you would like to add to this interview, before we close? FONTAINE: Yes, just briefly. I think that Del was one of those few guys from the "manufactured" pop-star era who really had the talent. He could sing. He could write. He could play guitar. And he could really jam. He should have been in the next generation of stars, amongst the British Invasion, where you could have a self-contained band, and you could write your own songs. In my opinion, I don't think "they" wanted him to have his own band. He as right on the cutting edge and I think that's maybe why he didn't get his due. DSAS: Absolutely! He was bridging that gap. Greg Shaw said it best, "Del Shannon was a 60's artist with 50's dues to pay." FONTAINE: You hit the hammer on the nail. DSAS: Fontaine, it's been a pleasure. Thank you. FONTAINE: Thank you. Check out Fontaine Brown's personal "MySpace" page at: http://www.myspace.com/fontainebrown Doug Brown / Dugg Brown / Fontaine Brown Mini-Discography: 1961 - Doug Brown "Blue Night" / "Swingin' Sue" Checker 1001 1964 - Doug Brown and The Omens "Norwest Lounge" (Radio Spot for Norwest Lanes Bowling Alley) 1965 - Doug Brown and The Omens "TGIF" / "The First Girl" Hideout 1008 1965 - Jamie Coe "The First Girl" / "Dealer" Enterprise E-5095 1965 - Doug Brown and The Omens "Youth and Experience" ** Hideout ** (one sided promo 45rpm to help Re-elect Michigan Senator Bob Griffin) 1966 - 4 of Us "I Can't Live Without Your Love" Hideout 1966 - The Beach Bums "Ballad of the Yellow Beret" / "It's Florida Time" Are You Kidding Me? 107669 1966 - Bob Seger and the Last Heard "Eastside Story" / "Eastside Sound" Hideout 1013 1966 - Bob Seger and the Last Heard "Sock It To Me Santa" / "Florida Time" Cameo C-444 1967 - Bob Seger and the Last Heard "Persecution Smith"/"Chain Smokin'" Hideout 1014/Cameo C-465 1967 - Bob Seger and the Last Heard "Vagrant Winter" / "Very Few" Cameo C-473 1967 - Bob Seger and the Last Heard "Heavy Music (Part 1)" / "Heavy Music (Part 2)" Cameo C-494 1967 - The Wanted "In The Midnight Hour" / "Here To Stay" A & M 844 1967 - The Wanted "Don't Worry Baby" / "Big Town Girl" A & M 856 1967 - Del Shannon "Thinkin' It Over" / "Runnin' On Back" Liberty 56018 1967 - Del Shannon "The Further Adventures of Charles Westover" LP - Liberty 1968 - Del Shannon "Gemini" / "Magical Musical Box" Liberty 56036 1968 - Brian Hyland "Come With Me" / "Delilah" Dot 45-17078 1968 - Southwind "Get On Board the Train" / "Got To Get Myself Together" Venture VE 616 1968 - Southwind "You've Been On My Mind" Venture VE 621 1969 - Southwind "Southwind" LP Venture 4002 1969 - Southwind "Ready To Ride" / "Cool Green Hills of Earth" Blue Thumb BLU 108 1969 - Southwind "Ready To Ride" LP BTS 13 1970 - Southwind "Boogie Woogie Country Girl" / "Honky Tonkin' Blue Thumb BLU 111 1971 - Southwind "What A Place To Land" LP BTS 26 1972 - Southwind "Please Don't Hitchhike" / "Beside the Mountain "BLU 203" 1979 - Moon Martin "Escape From Domination" LP (wrote "Bootleg Woman") Capitol ST-511933 1981 - Fast Fontaine "Fast Fontaine" LP EMI (America) 1A 062-863 1981 - Fast Fontaine "Fast Fontaine" LP EMI (Canada) SO 17044 1981 - Fast Fontaine "Is Your Heater Hot?" / "Back To Babylon" EMI 8075 1990 - Dave Edmunds "Closer To The Flame" LP (wrote title track and "Sincerely") Capitol CL90372 1990 - Dave Edmunds "Closer To The Flame" / "Don't Talk To Me" Capitol (Japan) PRP-1507 1990 - Dave Edmunds "Closer To The Flame" / "Stay With Me Tonight" Capitol (Europe) 203771 1993 - Dave Alvin "Museum of Heart" CD (background vocals) Hightone 1995 - Moon Martin "Lunar Samples" CD (background vocals) Core 1996 - astroPuppees "You Win The Bride" CD (co-wrote "Can't Turn Away") Hightone HCD8076 1998 - James Armstrong "Dark Night" CD (co-writer 2 songs) Hightone HCD8096 1999 - Moon Martin "Louisiana Jukebox" CD (co-wrote "Rockin' Little Honky Tonk") Eagle 2005 - astroPuppees "Sugarbeat" CD (background vocals and plays bass) Manatee 2007 - Fontaine Brown (New Album Coming Soon!) Manatee If you have questions or additions related to Fontaine Brown or DELSHANNON.COM, you may contact Brian Young, delshannon@comcast.net.

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